Environment Minister George Eustice has claimed that because EVs are heavier, they emit more tyre and brake pollution. But he's clearly wrong, particularly about the brakes. In this episode of the WhichEV podcast, James and Stef explain why Eustice's claims are incorrect, and how EVs really are the best way to make car transportation greener.
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Music by Soonripe Collective.
Episode Transcription
00;00;12;01 – 00;00;23;11
James
Hello, and welcome to the latest edition of The WhichEV podcast. We're back after a bit of a break I’m WhichEV’s Editor James Morris and I have with me, WhichEV's co-founder, Stefano Rebaudengo.
00;00;23;22 – 00;00;24;08
Stef
Hello.
00;00;25;05 – 00;00;44;17
James
It's stressful. You haven't heard from us for a while. Today we're going to be talking about the thorny issue of emissions. And I don't mean what Stef does. After a night out on the barren curry, Environment Secretary George Eustice recently argued that EVs might not be as green as we think due to tire rubber and brake dust. Stef, is George right?
00;00;45;09 – 00;01;15;12
Stef
I'm not sure he made an argument. I think he he's set out a position to try and say that electric cars are not as clean as everybody make so that they are because they waste slightly more than regular cars and therefore they're going to be more dusty, which is very strange. Considering the they don't actually produce any tailpipe emissions at all.
00;01;15;12 – 00;01;35;06
Stef
And what he's basically saying is extra weight from the car is going to wear the tire and road a little bit more and therefore there's going to be a bit more dust coming off them. And I think there's this there's a couple of things wrong with this assertion. And I think that's what is made, isn't it, James? It's an assertion.
00;01;35;24 – 00;01;41;17
James
Yeah. I mean, he said he's also talking about bright dust. And thing is that this is this is an argument that if heard.
00;01;42;00 – 00;01;48;21
Stef
Time and time, just one just kills me as easily saying the brakes.
00;01;49;07 – 00;01;56;06
James
And the thing is that he's been I mean I mean let's let's go through. George Eustice is background you know he's been an MP.
00;01;56;15 – 00;02;12;24
Stef
But I just could I interject just momentarily wasn't there a thing a while back about electric cars needing tweaks to the way the brakes are being used because they used so in infrequent that they begin to rust this stuff.
00;02;13;00 – 00;02;14;18
James
Yeah, absolutely. We'll come back to that.
00;02;15;00 – 00;02;18;16
Stef
We come back that. We come back to that. We're going to go back on George Eustice.
00;02;18;16 – 00;02;25;11
James
I just want to kind of like I point out why this is so surprising. He's been well, he's been an MP for what I think nearly 12 years, but he's.
00;02;25;11 – 00;02;26;18
Stef
Been so he's a politician.
00;02;26;25 – 00;02;40;10
James
He's a politician, but he has been dealing with environmental and agricultural stuff for a while. He was he was the the ag and fish guy for suits under David Cameron. So in 2019.
00;02;40;28 – 00;02;44;03
Stef
So he knows about fields and fishing.
00;02;44;04 – 00;03;10;01
James
Yeah right. Obviously not in 2019 as David Cameron was long gone by then but the yeah he was, he's been the environment minister since 2020 so a couple of years during that and I've read reports from DEFRA which is you know under his remit where they specifically talk about regenerative braking reducing. Right. So obviously he hasn't read the reports but his own wing of government has.
00;03;11;05 – 00;03;23;24
James
I mean the one that I'm thinking of is a few years earlier and there's just been another one come out in December about this. But as you said, I mean you know, let's let's circle back as I like to say in the United States of America.
00;03;24;07 – 00;03;27;24
Stef
And James, we also can we also unpack it?
00;03;28;06 – 00;03;34;00
James
Yeah. Let's let's let's circle back and unpack. Yes, circle, unpack. Is that a thing? You're American.
00;03;34;01 – 00;03;37;03
Stef
I think we just made that one. We just made that thing.
00;03;37;11 – 00;04;07;19
James
So I'm going to circle unpack. This whole thing, because you're absolutely right. There's a whole bunch of things to say about brakes. Yes. They don't use their brakes very often. They say there's a number of cases of Tesla's that are like eight years old and have never had any change of brake pads. You know, if you look at the brakes on an EV and mine is included, they are a bit rusty because they don't get used very often and they do have to that's kind of one of the things they have to do is they actually have to.
00;04;08;12 – 00;04;14;24
Stef
Say you're going round generating rust. Is that what you're doing when you're driving your electric car? That change.
00;04;15;14 – 00;04;20;15
James
It's accumulating, but it's not coming off because there's no there's no actual braking to be done.
00;04;20;15 – 00;04;26;04
Stef
So you're driving a Rust Generation machine, putting rust everywhere when you drive.
00;04;27;21 – 00;04;28;20
James
If you say so, stuff.
00;04;29;02 – 00;04;29;20
Stef
Like.
00;04;29;27 – 00;04;30;05
James
The.
00;04;31;21 – 00;04;33;07
Stef
George Eustice just said.
00;04;33;15 – 00;04;36;14
James
You know, he must be he's the environment minister, so he must be right.
00;04;36;18 – 00;04;38;17
Stef
So he does field some fish.
00;04;38;29 – 00;04;51;04
James
Yes. So the you know, another point to make is VW Group has started putting high performance drum bike brakes on the rear race of their cars because.
00;04;51;07 – 00;04;54;27
Stef
Those are the ones that I've got like the vents on them that make them look really cool.
00;04;55;07 – 00;04;56;13
James
Yeah, they can look pretty cool.
00;04;56;16 – 00;04;59;01
Stef
Actually. Yeah. Yeah, they I like those people.
00;04;59;02 – 00;05;04;13
James
So so these these are basically these are designed to last for the entire lifetime of the car.
00;05;04;26 – 00;05;10;02
Stef
So that's going to make a lot of people that work in the changing brake industry have the e-bike. Yeah.
00;05;10;21 – 00;05;19;23
James
Yeah. I think I think VW is basically taking this one on the chin, frankly, because they've just going all in on electric I mean, you know, you have to applaud them for that. But that's, that's it.
00;05;19;27 – 00;05;23;26
Stef
Because they, they, they get in trouble, didn't they, for gas. What do with these or.
00;05;24;10 – 00;05;42;08
James
Yeah, because of the diesel. Go back. And that's the. Yes, sir. We've we've had that conversation a few times. So so I mean these, these, these things, you know, drum brakes always had a bit of a bad reputation back in the day. But the thing about about drum brakes is that they're fully enclosed so they don't produce any particulates.
00;05;42;17 – 00;05;48;13
Stef
You can say, isn't it because they lock up or something drum brakes they can lock on my wrong.
00;05;48;17 – 00;06;12;17
James
Yeah. And also the performance compared to disc brakes is potentially less. But the thing is that they're still putting disc brakes on the front of their cars. But the because most of the VW group cars are re-arrange and you know, they've got the motors at least across the rear wheels. If not the front wheels as well, that means that the rears are going to be most of the time using regenerative braking and change.
00;06;12;17 – 00;06;16;01
Stef
Can I, can I, can I just query something here?
00;06;16;08 – 00;06;18;17
James
Of course. Of course you might. You have my permission.
00;06;19;13 – 00;06;48;19
Stef
So when they're measuring the the particulates coming off of these cars surely when it's when you're taken into account exhaust gas particulate emissions there is when they create it they are they're being pumped into the air as aerosols. Yeah. In a whole exhaust gas. And so they sort of merge now and being blown out of the back of the car directly into the air.
00;06;49;00 – 00;06;59;26
Stef
Yeah. Whereas brake dust and tire where surely that's going to more or less fall out of the car and land on the road.
00;07;00;09 – 00;07;18;11
James
Well I think, I think is to do with this because there's all this thing about PM10 and PM 2.5, which is, which is the size of the particles. And I think if they're small enough, they will kind of blow around. But I mean here some steps for you I looked up on the original Def report which was up in 2016.
00;07;18;23 – 00;07;49;07
James
So not you know obviously cars have got clean as is 2016, but in 2016 non-exhaustive emissions were just 7.4% of vehicular emissions and and tire away on its own was just 2.5%. So you know I think the only grade and is a PM10 repeal PM 2.5 grade we'll never know but the only grain of of truth in what George Eustice said is nice.
00;07;49;07 – 00;07;50;16
Stef
One James nice one.
00;07;50;22 – 00;07;51;16
James
Yeah I did that.
00;07;51;22 – 00;07;52;28
Stef
Yeah that was really good.
00;07;53;06 – 00;08;28;14
James
Is that a these are typically a bit heavier than regular cars and they will produce a little bit more rubber particulate than a petrol car. That is true. But the amount that they will produce because I mean you know I talked about this on I just going to namedrop I was talking about this to on times radio last night and the I found an example you know, the the Range Rover, the typical Chelsea Tractor, Range Rover is up to 2.7 times.
00;08;28;22 – 00;08;45;19
James
But if you've got the equivalent Tesla the Model X, that's actually less than 2.5 tonnes. So that's actually lighter than the than the Range Rover. So if you're going to get really upset about about cars producing brake dust and rubber particulates have a go at people who drive massive SUVs around.
00;08;45;22 – 00;09;06;07
Stef
Well who isn't. It's, it's HGV they're responsible for most of the road where in test generation any authority they they create way way more than your average car because of the weight but it's because they weigh a multiple more than your average family car.
00;09;06;24 – 00;09;27;18
James
And also you know the diesel engines in those you know produced way more particulates as well. I mean you know I think if you want to reduce the particular pollution in cities you've got to get busses and trucks electrified. If I be allowed into into the it's a city environment.
00;09;27;18 – 00;09;38;03
Stef
And we weigh less than they do because they're the they're responsible for the lion's share of the particulate production in that type of well.
00;09;38;20 – 00;09;45;11
James
I'm not sure how you're going to get around the white issue with with those because, you know, obviously they're going to be carrying a very large heavy load.
00;09;45;11 – 00;10;13;11
Stef
So, yeah, I mean, so so we just going to we can have to live with it like we've always done, right? I mean, well, what I'm interested in here is we we currently live and have been living among these awfully polluting cars specifically diesels for the last ten, 15 years where they really, really pushed it on everybody and nobody will own diesels.
00;10;13;11 – 00;10;13;24
James
Isn't that.
00;10;14;12 – 00;10;40;28
Stef
It's terrible. But James, nobody and I'm going to sorry, I might even use a swear here. Nobody gave an F at the time when everybody was driving diesel cars, producing PM 2.5. And now we've got a potential solution to that. That produces way less than the cars that we currently have on the road. They're having a go. The solution?
00;10;41;09 – 00;10;41;27
James
Well, we'll.
00;10;42;00 – 00;10;48;06
Stef
We'll they are they missing the ginormous elephant in the room of all the pollution that's happening now?
00;10;48;12 – 00;10;50;22
James
No, there's something else going on, but we'll come back to that.
00;10;51;04 – 00;10;52;29
Stef
Can we come back to that? Just because.
00;10;52;29 – 00;10;55;05
James
That, by the way.
00;10;56;13 – 00;11;07;13
Stef
Is polluting lovely. Are going out in the morning and get a nice fresh face of being 2.5 every day. And you know what is doing wonders for the.
00;11;07;13 – 00;11;10;14
James
Health it cleans the insides out a PM you know because it's a.
00;11;10;20 – 00;11;26;00
Stef
Just plain flies. Yeah I like the this particulate they need I like everyone with science is quite important what's going on because we are trashing our environment in horrific ways because I rid of.
00;11;26;19 – 00;11;27;11
James
What you are anyway.
00;11;27;11 – 00;11;52;23
Stef
Sorry yeah I read a story not too long ago about dryers dryers. The vented dryer produces loads of pm 2.5. So it's dry event in the form of microplastics from clothes. Yeah. So what are we going to do now, James? Ban them as well.
00;11;53;08 – 00;11;55;06
James
Clothes? Yeah, I think we should all go around.
00;11;55;08 – 00;12;09;19
Stef
Fine kids. Yeah. Ban craze. I think it's good that they're actually spotting these things because I think the the natural solution for that one would be more natural fibers in plates and less plastics.
00;12;11;03 – 00;12;23;01
James
And also people people are keeping their clothes for longer as well. I mean, you know, if you look at your dress sense, you've obviously you know, cotton on to that one really well. So thanks for.
00;12;23;01 – 00;12;29;08
Stef
Me. You know what, James? I thank you for meeting the same, noticing the sacrifice. I've made this.
00;12;30;16 – 00;12;42;06
James
Anyway. Let's hope so. So we decided that George Eustice is stretching the truth a little bit and he should probably go back and read some of his DAFF reports and he's you know, he.
00;12;42;15 – 00;12;49;19
Stef
Seems to it seems like he is just trying to get political points, if that's what that one feels like. Yeah. You know.
00;12;49;22 – 00;13;17;24
James
He's sure why when what his overall parliamentary group is quite pro green these days. They seem to be backtracking a little bit on that at the moment, so. Okay. So that one is. So what about this? What about the claim that you're if you are with an electric car, you're actually. Yes, you're there's no emissions coming out the tailpipe, but actually you're just pushing that out to the power stations.
00;13;17;24 – 00;13;23;22
James
And so those are emitting as much CO2 as cars. What do you think about that? One says.
00;13;23;26 – 00;13;51;29
Stef
Well, that was just nonsense as well, isn't it? Say the the the cool thing about okay, the cool thing about connecting cars to the power station instead of their being their own power stations, that's kind of what your, your petrol and diesel engine cause all these you only have one thing to clean up. So for example, let's say we get rid of all coal production, all electricity generated by coal production.
00;13;52;05 – 00;14;19;02
Stef
We can switch all over to which we have already and switch all over to wind and nuclear and also get rid of natural gas as well. By doing that, we have immediately cleaned up the entire fleet of cars in the UK if every car was driven by electricity. And so EVs are as clean as the power they is the method of the power that is being produced.
00;14;19;25 – 00;14;40;05
Stef
So if you clean up the message of the power, so the method of generating electricity, you clean up the leaves without having to do anything else, whereas you cannot do that with a petrol engine car, you'd have to replace it. So you have a cleaner petrol motor or a cleaner diesel meter. They're not going to get much cleaner than they are.
00;14;40;05 – 00;15;08;20
Stef
But let's say a new invention comes along, notice it to clean or to benefit from that you'd have to get everybody in the country to change their their petrol or diesel car to the newer version with the better pollution control in it, but with if it's everyone's already driving these, they'd benefit from cleaner power stations. So the cleaner power station gets, the cleaner the power station gets the cleaner of the fleet of cars becomes on the road.
00;15;09;16 – 00;15;37;22
James
Yeah. Well, there's another thing I want to come to is the kind of total cost of the total emissions of the whole lifecycle of a vehicle in a second. So another thing that has been neglected to be mentioned in these kind of calculations, though, is the amount of emissions that goes into producing fossil fuel in the first place, which is around, I think, the rather excellent I'm going to totally mispronounce this guy's name.
00;15;37;22 – 00;15;57;20
James
But Oki Hoekstra, who is a senior advisor in Smart Ability at Eindhoven University of Technology, has done some calculations and reckons that the production of fuel you could add 30% on top of tailpipe emissions for petrol and gasoline at 25% for diesel.
00;15;57;27 – 00;16;01;25
Stef
So I'm so glad someone's actually worked out and done that some.
00;16;01;26 – 00;16;20;01
James
Yeah. So I mean I did, I did an article about this for Forbes some months ago and I basically calculated what the, the emissions are. And obviously this does really depend on the national grid and those vary a lot. You know, the British grid is pretty clean. I think the French one is even cleaner because they have.
00;16;20;19 – 00;16;21;18
Stef
Lots of new nuclear.
00;16;22;07 – 00;16;37;17
James
But ours is getting there because we have a lot of wind, you know, a bit like you after a Korean a point at the end. So, you know, it's you know, I did some calculations. I basically went through and looked at the the output of the various grids. And and it.
00;16;37;17 – 00;16;40;10
Stef
Was a great article. James, I really enjoyed reading it.
00;16;40;10 – 00;16;47;22
James
Thank you. And I think, you know, sorry for any Australian listeners, but Australia's grid is incredibly dirty, so I'll use that one.
00;16;48;08 – 00;16;51;09
Stef
There's filthy see the Aussies on that. But we know that.
00;16;51;29 – 00;16;53;00
James
Yeah, everyone talks.
00;16;53;00 – 00;16;54;04
Stef
About colonials.
00;16;54;14 – 00;17;09;05
James
But actually Australia is worse than China or. Yes, bad. So I basically I looked at the, I took a typical but frugal kind of family hatchback. I go 1.0 tsoye and I.
00;17;10;04 – 00;17;14;13
Stef
I think it's a misery of an engine size they change. What do you mean do the g t I.
00;17;15;05 – 00;17;22;03
James
Know because I'm just trying to be as clean as possible and as I come on. That's right. That's absolutely charged and.
00;17;22;03 – 00;17;33;25
Stef
Supercharge it's not very kind though is it, making people drive around in the one liter fictional angel hypothetical engine. You could have given them a life if they could till.
00;17;34;01 – 00;17;36;21
James
The one liter ti is is actually quite good. But anyway, let's, let's.
00;17;36;25 – 00;17;41;23
Stef
See if you have that verse is the GDI you can to choose the g t.
00;17;42;24 – 00;17;57;17
James
The that produces about 160 odd CO2 e grams per kilometer. So I compared it to what I did three pro performance, which is admittedly probably it's slightly more of a GTI isn't.
00;17;57;21 – 00;18;03;08
Stef
That's the way better call it's a dry you cannot drive that one straight away without even knowing what the pollution is.
00;18;03;14 – 00;18;06;25
James
I don't the British grid it's 36 CO2.
00;18;07;02 – 00;18;07;25
Stef
Wow.
00;18;08;13 – 00;18;14;00
James
We km so literally kind of what's our that's like less than four times as much.
00;18;15;02 – 00;18;18;18
Stef
It's about the same that you produce by walking along the side of the road.
00;18;19;16 – 00;18;29;18
James
Yeah the US grid is by almost twice as much because they're still quite good but and even though the Australian grid is almost three times as much as the British great, it's.
00;18;29;18 – 00;18;31;26
Stef
Disgusting on the Australis.
00;18;32;18 – 00;18;35;14
James
Yeah. I mean just look at their they why they play.
00;18;36;24 – 00;18;42;12
Stef
Yeah. Cricket, rugby hats with corks on and living upside down.
00;18;42;17 – 00;19;25;10
James
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes, yes. But you know the even on the Australian grid, the 83 pro performance produces less CO2 grams per kilometer than the golf 1.0. Tdci and then I actually also put the Prius in there as well and that on, you know, if you, if you and I just did that on the on a so that that's actually still that's only slightly more frugal than a 1.0 to select golf to be honest it's actually you know it's maybe about 20% more frugal I obsessed with hydrogen next you know how much we love hydrogen and hydrogen.
00;19;25;10 – 00;19;30;01
James
It's because hydrogen is mostly produced with you know.
00;19;30;10 – 00;19;31;05
Stef
Fossil fuels.
00;19;31;05 – 00;19;38;15
James
Fossil fuels. And even if you even if you produce with green hydrogen it's still almost three times as much because of the inefficiency of a.
00;19;39;03 – 00;19;47;15
Stef
When we talk about the use of the different colors that they've got going here because they that is sort of blue hydrogen as well. Or is it?
00;19;47;26 – 00;20;10;03
James
Yeah, there's lots of different colors and make dry hydrogen. Black hydrogen. I think it's produced from coal. Gray is methane, blue is any of those. But with a with carbon capture somewhere in the equation and that's also purple. And I think there's even like there's all kinds of colors. The rainbow is it's a bit LGBT.
00;20;10;13 – 00;20;19;04
Stef
You know, would change. If I was the inventor of these colors. I would sing like if I was green, I would sue them for for defamation.
00;20;19;04 – 00;20;20;05
James
If you are Graham Green.
00;20;20;22 – 00;20;46;15
Stef
Yeah. Because it's not it's cheating isn't it, by calling me green or purple or blue when it's it's not it's carbon and therefore it should be black. But I don't want to use that term, do they? Because that's that's polluting or gives a bad image. So they're trying to dress it up by giving it nice colors.
00;20;46;28 – 00;21;00;06
James
Yeah. I mean the whole I mean we've, we spent a many times in the past talking about hydrogen. You know, that's probably not something we want to get into unless we want to add another half hour or 2 hours to the same space.
00;21;00;09 – 00;21;06;02
Stef
Sooty, sooty and so black carbon produced by burning things.
00;21;08;17 – 00;21;33;27
James
I'm totally with you there. Thank you. Yep. So anyway, so I mean, the kind of the argument we've just been having about, about emissions is summed up by that cartoon that you often see on social media, which is supposedly you've got a great, you know, I'm so green and you're so dirty diesel. And then they've got a picture of a of a supposed electric car supposedly attached to all these coal fired a coal power stations.
00;21;33;27 – 00;21;42;09
James
But actually, you know, the UK grid barely ever uses more than 2% of coal, ideally none.
00;21;42;13 – 00;21;51;16
Stef
So be the coal power station with light smokestacks of smoke billowing into the sky right.
00;21;52;02 – 00;22;10;12
James
Now I think there's only a couple of those still left in the UK. This one I drove past actually it's kind of around somewhere I of let Loughborough kind of area. I think Nottingham somewhere out there. There's one that's kind of on call for when required, but there's, there's really not very many of the most have been decommissioned now.
00;22;11;08 – 00;22;14;07
Stef
Well up into the tracks. Well, is that being taken out of commission?
00;22;14;20 – 00;22;16;24
James
Wasn't Drax like a like an evil person?
00;22;17;04 – 00;22;30;13
Stef
It was. And it was amazing because they called it the same. They gave it that name. I think it was a James Bond villain. Oh yeah. Course, yeah. To a power station that was an evil polluting power station.
00;22;30;25 – 00;22;31;19
James
Very fitting.
00;22;31;28 – 00;22;33;09
Stef
Very fit. Yeah. Yeah.
00;22;33;20 – 00;22;51;24
James
Well, so we've debunked that one so the next thing that we want to talk about is what about the claim that actually because more energy goes into producing any V that offsets the fact that that once you kind of drive it, the TV is producing lower tailpipe emissions. What do you reckon about that one?
00;22;52;09 – 00;23;33;21
Stef
Well, again, I mean, it's this it's this gotcha that I've skeptics like to use. And I can't believe that still they're still coming up with these things. But yes, in theory, an IVA might be more energy intensive to produce than a regular petrol or diesel car. However, if you clean up the method of production, let's say you do a Tesla and you have a Gigafactory that has an absolute shitload of solar power on the roof, then actually producing your car is very, very clean.
00;23;34;19 – 00;23;37;08
Stef
So I think it's I think it's a non argument.
00;23;37;20 – 00;24;04;24
James
It is. And I think the thing that goes around a lot is Volvo's figures because Volvo's broke polestar have been very candid about their figures. But the thing to bear in mind is that their vehicles are produced in China, and so they have what they produce on one of the dirtiest grids around. Right. Whereas if you can and I think the you and the others, he's got a we're going to have him on the podcast some point as a guest.
00;24;04;24 – 00;24;24;25
James
But he's he's a YouTuber who has produced a really excellent video that is often wheeled out to combat this. And he takes the example of a of a of a much better case scenario, which is the Nissan Leaf produced in Sunderland, because they do produce a lot of their own energy. They've got tons of solar wind power, I think, up there as well.
00;24;25;02 – 00;24;44;09
James
So they're producing less. But thing is that even even if you produce your car in China like Volvo cars of the kind of 40,000 miles or so, it starts to become better than any petrol car for for carbon emissions. And it will be I've jumped off to 45 50,000 miles almost.
00;24;45;02 – 00;25;01;16
Stef
And as you as you as you move forward the the easy still is a zero emission vehicle yeah. The petrol diesel because the engine starts to wear out the emission control system start to wear out will actually become more polluting over time.
00;25;01;25 – 00;25;29;01
James
Yeah. Yeah. You know the okay this is a lobby group for, for environmental issues, transport and environment but they've, they've actually run the figures in various different, different environments. It's another art gallery for folks where I kind of sited their stuff and they, they basically looked at Europe, United States China and India. In every single case, the BFA over its lifetime is cleaner.
00;25;29;07 – 00;26;10;13
James
And if you, if you're talking about Europe, it's waiting if that vehicle was produced in Europe because I agree with tend to be cleaner it's going to be like one over the lifetime one third of the of the amount of emissions. So you think it's. Yes. Because of the battery manufacturer that does actually add an extra bit of emissions that fossil fuel cars don't have, but it's nowhere near as much as is usually cited by by the naysayers and you know, again, it's another spurious argument that is used to to to try and say that we shouldn't change and shouldn't shift over time based.
00;26;11;00 – 00;26;38;14
Stef
Or delay to slow it down. Give give these guys enough time to offload the assets that may become stranded because everyone starts driving Yeah. I think, you know, they try and bring out these this fear, uncertainty and debt and doubt the arguments. Right. But in the end, when you when you think it through logically, of course, EVs are cleaner like this.
00;26;38;17 – 00;27;19;13
Stef
There's no argument that they're just cleaner. There's there's nothing you can. I mean, we've talked about these nefarious groups like the American Petroleum Institute, funded by the Koch brothers over in the US. And they come up with all of these these crazy reports. And it's very, very scientific and and proper but it's not they just they just putting this stuff out there to try and slow down and confuse people into to maintaining the status quo, which isn't going to happen.
00;27;21;02 – 00;27;34;28
James
Yeah. We really need to combat this stuff. And, you know, the because, you know, they're trying to protect their profits but actually we need to do something about emissions now. We can't wait any longer.
00;27;36;12 – 00;28;04;02
Stef
So who is they? Well, it's the ultimate one. Change the comparison to me. Yeah. This is great. And I love the way because you've been you've been debunked. You debunked these ones every time. Thank God he's fantastic. Because, see, when when the evil happens online, you get you'll get into chats with people that they'll be asleep, follow us.
00;28;04;12 – 00;28;15;09
Stef
And some people hate what we're doing and they'll start on and in the end, they can't win these arguments because you can't fight against facts.
00;28;15;29 – 00;28;40;08
James
Yeah. I mean, the you know, when I if I if I attack hydrogen and if I produce something about environmentalism, I'll get particularly, you know, the the ones about kind of emissions, I'll get these old white men. Unfortunately, I hate to sound them sound like some kind of a super, super woke person here, but the almost invariably old white men with vested interest in the fossil fuel industry.
00;28;40;11 – 00;28;48;17
James
Right. So these, you know, if they're British, they will cite this this group that was that Nigel Lawson was involved in the very funding.
00;28;48;21 – 00;28;50;06
Stef
So it's a great guy.
00;28;50;21 – 00;29;19;16
James
Yeah, that's very, very you know, this never divulge where its source of funding comes from. It's probably the for your industry and it's you know, it's absolutely you know, they saw this and this other bloke who was a who's a former accountant who writes for this really bizarre website called The Conservative Woman. And, you know, I just like these these these kind of really poorly scientifically argued anti climate change.
00;29;19;19 – 00;29;28;21
Stef
So they sound scientific great like they love thing dressed up with pseudoscientific language without anything to really back you up.
00;29;29;06 – 00;30;08;12
James
Yeah. And they've also they've started calling when they start calling me a Nazi for being pro-environment, that's when you know, they've absolutely jumped the shark, which is possibly. Right. Mixing metaphors because I say that's a happy day metaphor. Isn't that jumping the shark? But anyway, let's, let's not go into into seventies and eighties television just yet. So let's see before before we kind of kind of wind up, we kind of unpack unpacking, circling pack or whatever it was the that bit the last thing is, you know, of the kind of major environmental related arguments that we get into is will the batteries lost solely.
00;30;08;12 – 00;30;11;09
Stef
On the recyclability of these batteries. All right.
00;30;11;20 – 00;30;27;14
James
So, you know, my mobile phone after three years, it's the battery's pretty much knackered. Surely all these batteries are going to come out. They're going to end up in landfill, right, Terry? And of course, there is the other sideline thing that batteries are made out of mints children after all.
00;30;28;10 – 00;30;32;21
Stef
Right. And they all say a thing they didn't even use blow up Tonga the other week as well.
00;30;33;09 – 00;30;34;12
James
Quite possibly, yeah.
00;30;34;21 – 00;30;36;02
Stef
Cause tsunami.
00;30;36;16 – 00;30;36;26
James
Yeah.
00;30;37;23 – 00;31;07;22
Stef
All right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's amazing because. Okay, so we've we've covered this before, but we go over it again. Every call on the road has a lead acid battery. Yeah, every single one. And I think they're recycled at a rate of 99.9%. Yeah. Literally every battery is recycled. They melt down the lead, take the electrolytes out, melt the plastic casing back down, and then make another battery of it.
00;31;08;13 – 00;31;16;04
Stef
And there is no there's no real reason why this can't happen with anything more on battery.
00;31;16;05 – 00;31;31;11
James
I think I think I think there are some valid reasons why people are concerned about this because they see, you know, supposedly the, you know, stuff gets shipped abroad to be recycled and that ends up in landfill in like Malaysia or something. And you know that this happens. It's terrible.
00;31;31;16 – 00;31;35;03
Stef
But plastics isn't the same thing.
00;31;35;06 – 00;31;39;02
James
The things that are recycled is not valuable. Material.
00;31;39;17 – 00;31;46;15
Stef
And James Jones, what industry is behind plastics, by the way? Could you just remind me.
00;31;47;06 – 00;31;49;27
James
Um, isn't it the origami industry?
00;31;50;00 – 00;31;53;05
Stef
Yeah, the oil industry. Those guys again, right?
00;31;53;19 – 00;31;53;28
James
Yeah.
00;31;54;09 – 00;32;04;27
Stef
Isn't that what an amazing. Just another way to ruin ice. Yeah. What is was the phrase another one of their products destroying the environment.
00;32;05;02 – 00;32;06;15
James
But the point about a bunch of.
00;32;06;15 – 00;32;07;00
Stef
Guys.
00;32;07;08 – 00;32;39;10
James
Lithium ion batteries this is the stuff in lithium ion batteries is potentially rare and valuable minerals. And so actually there's, there's it's cost effective if you can get the the recycling done efficiently you know that stuff is worth getting out and then it's happening. I think you know the one of our great new British companies, Britishvolt, has just recently announced a you know, they haven't even really started making batteries yet, but they're they're announcing recycling.
00;32;39;15 – 00;32;42;17
James
Volkswagen is already recycling batteries.
00;32;42;17 – 00;32;46;22
Stef
Again, Tesla's co-founder, he started recycling.
00;32;46;28 – 00;33;08;13
James
Well, Tesla I mean a battery day in 20, 20 you know but Tesla announced that they're planning to have a completely circular battery economy so their batteries will be there will completely you know, maybe you can get 100% out of the battery, but you can get 90 something percent and that's pretty good. You know because you know there's stuff that's in there.
00;33;08;13 – 00;33;17;29
James
You know, cobalt is valuable lithium lithium is plentiful. But you know, if you can get it out that way, it's valuable. You don't need to shove it in landfill because you can use it again.
00;33;18;10 – 00;33;33;19
Stef
Well, the only thing is, though, is that we're going to be putting all of these miners the only children out of business. Yeah. So what are we going to do? Has anyone considered the the impact that is going to have on the child labor market?
00;33;34;09 – 00;33;57;10
James
Well, I mean, I know you're being slightly slightly cheeky there, but I actually have had a serious discussion with people about that, because the thing is that the places where, you know, people always go about Congo, but there's those those children doing the mining. What's wrong with that is not the fact that people are mining cobalt. It's the fact that the children are mining doing it and they're doing it in terrible conditions.
00;33;57;16 – 00;34;19;01
James
And this is where things like the Fair Cobalt Allowance Alliance comes in, because the if you what if the country is rich in a mineral, why should they not be allowed to exploit their richness in that mineral? What you do have to do is ensure that exploitation doesn't happen in that process.
00;34;19;02 – 00;34;26;05
Stef
We've had we've had mining in this country. I mean, I think anyone who comes from the West Country within.
00;34;26;05 – 00;34;36;28
James
Our family by mining, mining, one of my one of my ancestors got killed by his pit pony. You know, I'm part Welsh and the well side of it all, mining still like so many people in Wales.
00;34;36;29 – 00;34;41;12
Stef
Everyone in Wales does a bit of mining don't they, for their GCSE?
00;34;42;02 – 00;34;44;09
James
Yeah, I mean I, I did a bit of mining but I was just.
00;34;44;09 – 00;35;09;29
Stef
A bit of CSG mining and that standard. Yeah, as I understand it, being someone who's from the home counties, Italian well as well, I think we have mines over there as well. James So, so in conclusion then we should eliminate all battery mining to name full battery recycling to carry on the, the mining industry in these countries.
00;35;10;01 – 00;35;35;24
James
Absolutely, absolutely. However, the fact is people sighting always kind of makes me laugh when people cite mobile phones because you know how often you charge a mobile phone like pretty much every day and yeah, so and you know that the, the kind of life cycle charge discharge cycle of, of a lithium ion battery somewhere between a thousand and 1500 times before it really starts to massively degrade.
00;35;36;02 – 00;36;01;16
James
The thing is you don't recharge any V every day. I mean unless you're I mean I think the one the one situation where that might be the case is if it's a bus or, or some kind of heavy use and commercial vehicle. But the average consumer with a car that just through into miles will be charging the car every few weeks which means that actually a thousand recharge recharge cycles is a decade or more of actual usage.
00;36;01;23 – 00;36;04;24
James
So it will but it slaps change.
00;36;04;24 – 00;36;14;21
Stef
I mean, what gets me is that when when mobile phones were invented, nobody had a mobile phone. And when they started selling everybody mobile phone.
00;36;14;29 – 00;36;19;25
James
Logical, really, because it's only that people wouldn't have mobile phones before they were invented, you know.
00;36;19;28 – 00;36;37;25
Stef
And could you imagine if they did, it would be an outrageous. But when when they started mass producing these things, nobody goes nobody said, where are you going to get the batteries from? Yeah. Nobody said, what about recycling? Nobody said any of this stuff. It wasn't even a it wasn't even a thought.
00;36;38;01 – 00;37;03;29
James
Well, let's just do it. This counter argument is, are you participating in the social media conversation? With a mobile phone or laptop? If you are, why weren't you upset about the lithium ion batteries in that? Why EVs that you're worried about? Yeah, and we've come to come to the reason why that in a second. But I just want to kind of make 11 final point, which is about and this kind of somebody said this on our Facebook group just recently, you know, like, oh, you know, the the thing.
00;37;04;15 – 00;37;06;26
Stef
I love is this the way they talk to as.
00;37;06;26 – 00;37;41;16
James
Well. Yeah. They talked with the taxman. Yeah. Oh, goody. Oh, they've got a list. He knew that they have eight year warranties, but after eight year warranties, who's going to buy it? Thing is, you have to think about what a warranty actually is, why a company gives it's willing to give an eight year 70% capacity warranty they know expecting all their batteries to have 70% after 88 years because if they if that was the the average then they would have had to replace a lot of expensive batteries because of the kind of the way the bell curve flat within that.
00;37;41;21 – 00;38;18;27
James
So actually what they've chosen is a percentage and an education that they're pretty confident will mean that the the vast majority of the batteries that they make will never have to be a warranty return there because otherwise it is be too expensive for them. And this is and you can see this because you know there's not a lot of of great figures actually about because they're not they're not a lot of EVs have been around for very long but the best ones around are Teslas and Teslas have lost you know there are you could see there's a there's a graph of of model S's and the Model S, the you know, almost all Model S's have
00;38;18;27 – 00;38;24;28
James
got 90% capacity after something like 150,000 miles.
00;38;25;02 – 00;38;55;04
Stef
Well that's it right. Unless the battery fails completely, a more or less will slowly, slowly degrade over time. Whereas a petrol engine, if we switch it over in a petrol or diesel for good after about eight years you're looking at probably emission system, maybe cuts, catalytic converter or the diesel particulate feel it's being changed. If it's a motor that's being produced after about 2010, it's got a turbo in it.
00;38;55;24 – 00;39;01;26
Stef
Turbos need to be changed after about a hundred thousand miles and that's going to cost you a fortune. And then the motorists.
00;39;02;18 – 00;39;05;19
James
Would change like a turbo must be junked the car frankly.
00;39;05;26 – 00;39;23;19
Stef
Right? Yeah, because it's going to be thousands of pounds and then the other one is a petrol motor doesn't really Leigh, unless seen in a pretty, pretty infrequent case, they're more or less designed to last around 250,000 miles and then it's expected that you're going to put it in the bin and.
00;39;24;10 – 00;39;37;28
James
And also they would have lost a lot of power in that time frame. I mean you know, a ten year old cause I don't know what the figures are, but you know, if you look at yeah, I've seen many examples of cars at 50 years old, I've actually lost like 30, 40% of their horsepower.
00;39;38;10 – 00;39;52;26
Stef
So it was so worst, worst horsepower and probably worse miles to the gallon. Yeah. So, so you're getting less out of a full tank of petrol than you would have when the car is new and that is more or less exactly what you're going to get with an EV.
00;39;53;13 – 00;39;59;05
James
And you can, yes, you can rebuild an engine and get most of the horsepower back actually, but that's an expensive process.
00;39;59;13 – 00;40;01;03
Stef
It's thousands of pounds it's.
00;40;01;03 – 00;40;05;21
James
Only worth doing if you've got an exotic car like it's like a sports car or something or something really rare.
00;40;06;00 – 00;40;08;12
Stef
Which is going to cost thousands of pounds.
00;40;08;12 – 00;40;10;16
James
Yeah, it's going to be the same sort of price as buying.
00;40;10;21 – 00;40;12;11
Stef
As buying a battery. Yeah.
00;40;13;03 – 00;40;20;27
James
There's been a lot of talk about, you know, Tesla charging £20,000 for new battery. But you know, also, I mean the lovely.
00;40;21;21 – 00;41;09;15
Stef
Well I think it's too early builds. If I had an X5 when I was in California and it was a twin turbo V8 heathen, I know that well I listen I like cars that needed that needed a stencil job so that means the heads of the engine also and they need to put compressed air on the back of I think it's into the spark plug holes that then keeps the everything pushed up and then you take the the valves out and he changes little rubber seal at the back of the valve that costs approximately $0.20 per per valve and it's like a 32 valve engine anyway.
00;41;10;08 – 00;41;20;15
Stef
The cost of the raw materials was about £3. The cost of the labor to do that dealership there was $12,000. Yeah.
00;41;21;04 – 00;41;23;01
James
Did you have to just, you just dropped the car.
00;41;24;13 – 00;41;29;06
Stef
That's $12,000. That's the cost of a battery. Yeah.
00;41;29;19 – 00;41;34;27
James
I'm just going to mention a recent, you know, video by Robert Llewellyn who is.
00;41;36;03 – 00;41;37;08
Stef
He's well like you.
00;41;37;15 – 00;41;49;04
James
Yeah. They're formerly the actor formerly known as Triton. He was a who is a, you know, probably, I have to say hat's off and kudos to that man for being one of the the UK.
00;41;49;06 – 00;41;52;03
Stef
He's an EV pioneer and a great guy.
00;41;52;03 – 00;42;15;09
James
I actually my first experience is a bit of an aside, but my first experience with them with driving it easy I drove a leaf in 2011 I went to event and because he was working doing videos with a friend on his channel called Channel Flip I met him and chatted to him on that point and he just got his Nissan Leaf for that boy because he's one of the first people to have won.
00;42;15;09 – 00;42;18;03
Stef
He was one of the first people to get one when I. Yeah, yep.
00;42;18;05 – 00;42;40;02
James
And he's he's still got that leaf and he's just recently had the battery replaced with a second hand battery. I think it cost him a couple of thousand euro to get this done doubled the range of of it because it's, it's twice the size of battery and you know, and the car he's got, he's had that call for a decade and he's going to be able to keep that for for another ten years frankly.
00;42;40;21 – 00;42;43;03
Stef
For the forseeable future we can say James and.
00;42;43;03 – 00;43;14;14
James
This is a thing you know people the Nissan Leaf is is partly responsible peoples who do know anything about about EVs kind of criticize to the left because they don't have thermal management. So some of the old leaves are problematic and you know they have lost quite a bit of range. But actually if you talk to leaf owners in general on forums, you'll find that actually quite a lot of them are doing really well despite all that it really depends on how else the people who bought Leafs in in the early days ten years ago or so didn't really know.
00;43;14;14 – 00;43;30;15
James
Kind of like how do you kind of manage battery recharging all the time. You'd be doing all the things that we now know you really shouldn't do with with the TV. If you want to get the best out of the battery life you know, so, you know, it's kind of hasn't really helped the press side of things.
00;43;31;20 – 00;43;34;05
Stef
But can I can I can I can I say something that James.
00;43;34;25 – 00;43;36;16
James
I that's kind of normal in a.
00;43;36;19 – 00;43;41;24
Stef
Podcast? Yeah. Yeah. Let me let me just let me just bring back that. Let's just roll that bit.
00;43;42;10 – 00;43;43;25
James
Are you going to focus back around?
00;43;44;06 – 00;44;11;09
Stef
Yeah. Let's circle back and unpack it for me because with, with the leaf battery pack change, you get this, this really odd situation where it's kind of like a KPC where you get to upgrade your car. Yeah. That, that doesn't happen with a petrol or diesel car. You buy it and you're stuck with the range that it comes with and some of the brake horsepower it comes with.
00;44;11;17 – 00;44;21;01
Stef
Yeah, you can ship it, but you're going to decrease the life of the engine or whatever it invalidates warranty immediately. But with a sell.
00;44;21;02 – 00;44;21;20
James
You insurance.
00;44;22;06 – 00;44;36;09
Stef
Yet with with, with the electric car you have the actual real possibility of legitimately upgrading it. When that battery runs out because battery technology is improving year on year.
00;44;36;25 – 00;45;11;09
James
Yeah. And also, I mean we've discussed this before and this is probably something we should talk about in a future podcast. Is the all connected vehicle software upgrades aspects of it because you know, I think the number of software upgrades my Teslas had had just a couple of days ago it, it had one the week before that. So it's just, you know, when I wasn't driving it so much during lockdown, it probably had more, more frequent software updates than I drove it at one point because you know, the of not going out that much.
00;45;11;27 – 00;45;21;01
Stef
Security in a lot of the manufacturers because they get in the way some things are free. What other manufacturers like to charge with.
00;45;21;01 – 00;45;44;27
James
All this time to pick up on that stuff. I think I think you know the the the kind of there are two parallel revolutions going on in automotive right now and EVs is obviously one of them but but connected cars is the other one and you know how how cars are becoming you know kind of app based appliances like like a smartphone is the other side of it.
00;45;45;05 – 00;46;06;13
James
And you know that's a kid that's I think that's something we should probably not really talk about too much now because that's that we really should devote a whole, whole podcast of that. So so so moving swiftly on from that, let's just so why why do you think I've certainly noticed an upswing in these and TV articles in in in the news.
00;46;06;13 – 00;46;12;16
James
And, you know, people are kind of parroting this stuff on social media. What you think is causing all this. Where is it coming from?
00;46;13;18 – 00;47;02;12
Stef
I mean, it's it seems to be the thing to do at the moment we have a good bashing is because unfortunately it is it seems to get aligned with some more of the unfortunate things that's happening in society. And so they are they're part of the thing, the cell coming along, which is bad, but that it's this is just not what they are and then unfold they you've got a huge shadowy industry, huge shadowy industry, the oil industry that's run by the great people who would just happen to be if you were in a movie, may be sitting around with these enormous oval desks deciding on which country they're going to keep first and then try
00;47;02;12 – 00;47;30;01
Stef
and love. Yeah. And they're just trying to they're trying to protect their industry. And the way they're doing it is by dragging on on the eve movement. It's a really and it's simply wanting to sort of have a go. You know, it's it's for some reason, they've ended up being a target for like conservatives even though conservative people buy is it's this weird this with a mixture of people.
00;47;30;01 – 00;47;32;05
Stef
And I think a lot of it is down to ignorance. James.
00;47;32;11 – 00;48;03;07
James
Yeah, I'm I think, you know, there is a lot of ignorance out there. I mean, kind of when I first started working with HIV and getting involved in these arguments, you know, it felt like you're kind of fighting for your life. But actually now now that you're starting to see these figures, you know, the the constant increase in in market share for Reeves in the UK and globally, the you know, it's starting to feel like you can keep saying this as much as you want.
00;48;03;16 – 00;48;04;24
Stef
It's not going to change anything.
00;48;06;14 – 00;48;06;23
James
You happen.
00;48;06;24 – 00;48;11;20
Stef
To you know what, I'm excited to see James. And I mean this genuinely.
00;48;12;05 – 00;48;12;20
James
Face.
00;48;13;10 – 00;48;39;02
Stef
Without James, you know, I'm always excited to see a face. But well, I'm excited to see is the pollution figures in the city like London start to be affected by the amounts of Ebola. So it's on the road there. And then I'd like to see the consumption of oil in the UK. I'd like to see that start to taper off and then decrease.
00;48;39;09 – 00;49;00;20
Stef
Yes, fewer and fewer people need to go to the pump and I can't wait to see it because it's going to be a it's going to be a night. That's that's only good stuff. I mean, unfortunately, if you if you're invested in those industries, you're not going to like that. But it's what needs to happen. So I guess get your money out.
00;49;01;06 – 00;49;14;21
James
I think a lot of them, a lot of those companies are seeing the writing on the wall, though. You know, as much as we kind of have an ambivalent feelings towards BP post BP's, you know, it knows where the writing's on the wall for it. So it's previously called.
00;49;14;21 – 00;49;16;06
Stef
We just know they they they've.
00;49;16;17 – 00;49;18;19
James
Shown us brought up a whole bunch of them as well.
00;49;18;29 – 00;49;27;26
Stef
Those those two were ahead of the curve on this story coming in. And they pull up the classic chargemaster that was the one of the nice insurance monster.
00;49;27;26 – 00;49;48;00
James
Yeah yeah and Shell's got the out noble but they also got uber tricity and frankly that's a couple of arbitrary cities down my road. And I've used the model I've got home charging. I just thought I'd try out that incredibly good because I just stuck in a lamp post and right there and there's a little kind of QR code you scan it that is not contactless payment, but you just scan it, put your credit card details in.
00;49;48;09 – 00;50;00;23
James
It's 24 per kilowatt hour at the moment. I like 45 kilowatt charger so it's basically almost as good as a seven kilowatt home charger. And everybody within even the neighbors using these things because they're great.
00;50;01;05 – 00;50;26;14
Stef
Yeah. And these companies, they did know they did rebrand themselves about 15 years ago now I think as energy companies rather than oil they they they knew it was coming and so they applied to them. Yeah for four actually. And it seems that there might even be parallels in these companies where you got the oil guys and the energy guys and then now diverging and they might even be working against each other.
00;50;26;14 – 00;50;31;12
Stef
There's probably a lot of internal politics going on that's, that's tolerable. But yeah.
00;50;31;29 – 00;50;35;19
James
That has been in the car companies. I mean, that's what I've heard about BMW in particular.
00;50;36;12 – 00;50;36;20
Stef
Yeah.
00;50;37;00 – 00;50;38;02
James
Yeah. Well, actually.
00;50;38;13 – 00;50;57;28
Stef
These must be outside colonies inside these companies. I imagine Toyota must be a very difficult place to work if you're in the division at the moment because because they really don't. They and I get why, you know, they're trying to protect their home employment on their home turf.
00;50;58;13 – 00;51;03;17
James
You know, it's a fair argument. Yep. It's a fair outcome because people need jobs.
00;51;04;03 – 00;51;05;04
Stef
People need jobs.
00;51;05;09 – 00;51;18;25
James
But people also need to continue living. And, you know, that's right. There is an oncoming emergency the you know, could really it really mean that a lot of people end up in a very bad situation?
00;51;18;25 – 00;51;26;05
Stef
Right. And and then the more EVs on the road the more tankers are going to blow up and what can you say?
00;51;26;15 – 00;51;44;13
James
Well, I'm going to say that's a great place to it's almost finished. I'm just going to say two to to really finish off that all of the things that we've we've discussed that our arguments against EVs, if they have any truth at all, it's it's a grain of grain of truth that you need to look into more detail.
00;51;44;13 – 00;52;04;29
James
You find that if you do have a more detailed look at the situation, whether it's particulate, whether it's, you know, the CO2 emissions from power stations, whether it's total lifetime CO2 emissions, whether it's battery recycling, none of that stuff is really what people say is it's just all humans is.
00;52;04;29 – 00;52;09;22
Stef
Question. Yeah, question. Why these things have been said. Yeah.
00;52;09;22 – 00;52;21;22
James
I think it's people who are either intrinsically don't like change or people who have been listening too much to, frankly, propaganda from vested interests in the in the oil industry.
00;52;23;17 – 00;52;26;18
Stef
So beware.
00;52;26;25 – 00;52;27;12
James
Beware.
00;52;27;25 – 00;52;28;14
Stef
Sway.
00;52;28;22 – 00;52;31;15
James
Don't listen to the fear, the fear, uncertainty and doubt.
00;52;31;21 – 00;53;03;06
Stef
It was the other one I liked link, I will say, and is completely different subjects, but they they were looking at PM 2.5 being generated. I would burn in stays at home. Yeah. And I liked that one because it really felt like that was that article and research is sponsored by some energy company somewhere wanting to protect their their revenue stream because people are buying wood burners and they're not switching on the gas boiler only.
00;53;03;17 – 00;53;04;21
James
Have you got wood Stef?
00;53;06;14 – 00;53;08;25
Stef
Always James but I take pills for it.
00;53;09;09 – 00;53;15;09
James
Okay and on that bombshell that's it for today's podcast we've been James Morris and Stefano Rebaudengo.
00;53;15;20 – 00;53;16;03
Stef
Hello.
00;53;17;03 – 00;53;39;06
James
And you have as always been a great audience. Please subscribe to our podcast if you haven't already and tune in next time for more chat and analysis of the latest EV stories. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn and Instagram. And of course, please come back to the website. Please. Please come back to a website which he vetoed that the most recent news reviews and features on everything Electric Vehicle.
00;53;39;17 – 00;53;40;23
James
We'll talk to you next episode.